++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Lost Scrolls of Darkness +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
====================================================================
The best way to start out with Warhammer is to buy the box set, the
Magic box set, and the appropriate Army Book (assuming you don't have
access to these already)
====================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:45:44 +0100
From: Tony Scott
Well, here's the army I used in the tournament at Tacticon. Out of 16
entrants, I placed 3rd. I will also post battle summaries, so if you're
interested, keep this army list, because it will be referenced.
Undead Tournament Army List 2000 points, 1 mage, 50 point magic items,
50% regiments, Scenario 10.
Mounted Vampire Lord, 538 points
Rending Sword, Skull Staff, Ring of Corin, Carstein Ring,
Additional hand weapon (never used)
Always took Summon Skeletons, and VHDM
Mounted Wight Lord, 105 points
Potion of Strength, Cursed Book
Lance, Shield
10 Skeleton Horsemen 314 points
Shield, Lance, Banner of Might
Mummy Tomb King 357 points
Chimera, Lance, Charmed Shield
5 Skeleton Horsemen 145 points
Shield, Lance, Banner of Sorcery
3 Carrion 135 points
3 Carrion 135 points
20 Skeleton Warriors 270 points
Spear, Banner of Defiance, Musician
Comments;
The Carstein ring never got used in any of the games, however the Black
Amulet would have proved useful to rebound wounds occasionally. This
could have swung the combat results in my favor more quickly and won
games faster for me. It's comforting to be able to put your precious
general into harms way, but with this unit, he could survive a lot.
Probably reducing the two units of carrion into a single unit of 5 would
have been a good idea. Since very few armies included war machines, they
were less effective than ususal. Adding the extra points to one of the 3
skeleton units would be a good idea. The spear unit probably would have
been better off with halberds.
When the MTK/Chimera was useful, he rocked. Otherwise he was very
expensive to be out of the battle for even one turn. On the plus side,
he was almost impossible to kill, and could stand up to most units all by
himself.
Asside from the carrion, it is very difficult to get VP's from this
army. The Skeleton infantry simply don't go away fast enough, and the
main block is one of the hardest units I've ever seen. Believe it or
not, I'm actually considering making several skeleton cav with just
lances and no shields. Those extra points are almost enough for another
figure.
The Banner of Might/Cursed book is an awesome combination. Even against
elves, you've got an even fight, and they don't have a vampire chopping
everything around him.
The Banner of Sorcery was generally a boon. Even with a single summon
skeletons spell it payed for itself. One of these days I'll draw Total
Power or Drain magic, and it will REALLY pay for itself.
=======================================================================
I asked GW phone troll a while back
The big Undead box contains:
>
> Dieter* on Manticore*
> Vampire count*
> 20 warriors (include standard bearer* and musician*)
> 6 horsemen
> 12 Goul*
> 13 zombie (std bearer* and musician*)
> 2 wight champion *
> 2 carrion *
> 2 catapult *
> 2 chariot
>
> * : lead
----
I posted my army lists and comments to the list earlier. This post
contains rough battle summaries and my feelings about the convention.
The battles were fought with Battle Book, scenario 10 restrictions, plus
50% regiments minimum and 1 mage maximum. Monsters with 5 wounds did NOT
count for negating rank bonus.
First Battle
My first battle was at 8AM against Orc & Goblins. While the Boyz may
have still been up from a night of drinking and carrousing, I felt very
much like the zombies sitting in the case waiting to be summoned to the
table top!
His army (roughly) consisted of the following units (my left to right);
Night Goblin archers w/Black Orc Boss (21+)
Black Orcs with 2 hand weapons (16+)
Night Goblin archers (21+)
Goblins with Spears (??)
Savage Orc Boar Boyz w/Black Orc Warboss and level 3 shaman
Gorks War Banner + other assorted toys that I don't remember much.
2 doom divers were positioned on a hill behind them
I set up my units as such (my left to right)
Skeleton footmen
Behind these were the 2 units of carrion.
Small unit of skeleton cav
MTK on Chimera
Large unit of skeleton cav
On my first turn, I flew the carrion out to draw out the fanatics on the
left side. Since nobody had ever heard of the random release rule, much less
how it functioned, the fanatics were released and one scored a hit
directly while the other was moved just short in front of them.
The little looney killed 2 carrion leaving the third un-touched. Then
the ruling was made that the carrion had to end their movement right
there and could move no further. This is clearly not the correct
interpretation as shown in the O/G book. However not wanting to cause an
argument I just let it slide.
For some reason I chose not to use the 3 power cards in the banner of
sorcery, and this unit was destroyed in the following turn. That was a
waste. The battle was not looking good for the dead.
On my next turn, I dropped a unit of carrion down on a doom diver and my
Chimera on another. Both were destoyed.
A failed panic check caused a "we'll show'em" and between the fanatics
and archery, the small unit of undead cav was destroyed.
The Chimera turned and breathed doing no damage. and was essentially out
of the battle for the rest of the game.
I moved into charge range for to use VHDM and had the spell destroyed
with a Destroy Spell scroll. So much for that tactic. He charged me,
actually won the combat, and destroyed 7 out of the 9 skeleton horsemen
left (1 was killed on his first turn with a doomdiver). This caused my
Vampire to flee, but the skeletons un-thinkingly held their position
allowing him to escape. The wight lord crumbled into dust by his side.
The 3 skeletons lasted only one more turn, allowing on my opponents last
turn to charge my Vampire. Well, this and charging the skeleton unit
were his two big mistakes. The skeletons won the combat and made the
night goblin unit flee, while the Vampire challenged, his general
accepted, and was cut to shreds. Even with the modified overkill rule, I
wond the combat, and most of his army fled, and I cut down his main unit.
Typical to O/G attitude, he got greedy and was destroyed by the Dark Side.
I won the battle by about 4 or 5 VP.
------
DE
His army consisted of (my left to right);
5-6 Cold ones W/ General
5-6 Cold ones w/ witch elf champion
6+ Scouts (I think... skirmishing RXB holders)
12+ Witch elves
Cauldron of Blood with champion
6+ Scouts
and a unit of harpies in the back.
I moved first, and used 3 of the cards in my Banner of Sorcery to summon
more skeletons. This gave me an extra rank to my small unit of cavalry.
My carrion and Chimera flew high, everything else stayed still.
He moved next, few his harpies high and did one wound to a carrion. Then
he committed his major blunder. He moved everything forward into my
charge range. I dispelled everything that he tried, and we moved forward.
I charge his unit of cold ones unit with my main cav unit, my small cav
unit went against his witch elf unit, and 1 unit of carrion went against
a unit of scouts while the other attacked the flank of the witch elf
unit. The Chimera attacked the flank of the cold one unit that my main
block was attacking.
Each of the attacks succeeded in destroying and running down the units.
His generals cold one unit was left hanging around with nothing to
charge. I moved into position and charge that unit with my main block,
while mopping up the cauldron of blood and chasing the scouts with my
carrion.
His generals cold one unit disintigrated around him, and I chased him
down. At some point I destroyed his +A sword and his potion of strength,
with my ring of Corin.
This battle when so quickly and so decisively that many thought that we
hadn't gotten started. A couple of his friends thanked me for defeating
him so soundly and that he hardly ever lost. They enjoyed seeing that it
could be done. Needless to say, this was a real ego boost!
------
WE
Last year, I fought against the woodelves and lost. This year was to be
a different battle, but the end results were the same.
His army consisted of (left to right)
4 warhawks with champion & Dark Mace of Death.
6+ unit of archers on a hill (sorry don't know what type)
6+ unit of archers on a hill
treeman in front of the hill
12+ unit of archers
Unit of Dryads with general
4 cat chariot (yes, cat. It was a conversion done with sea shells, each
"steed" was represented by 3 cats. Pretty silly, but he spent a bit of
time on it.).
I moved first. I charged with my Chimera and destroyed the crew causing
the chariot to go random. It did not take a break test, should it have?
This caused the larger unit of archers to flee for 2 turns, but never
quite left the table.
I failed a charge with my carrion on a unit of archers, this set me up
for losing the final battle.
The warhawks killed a unit of carrion, and the archers killed all but one
of the second unit. This carrion few away trying to conserve VP, but
didn't fly far enough.
My skeleton infantry kept his treeman busy for a long while, but given
that it couldn't wound it, was a loosing battle. Eventually the warhawks
came to assist in the attack and eventually destroyed the unit.
My main unit of cavaly charged the dryads. He used the -1 attack aspect
and we rolled a D6 to determine whether it's the steeds or riders attack
that is lost for RnF. The results were 1 and 1. The Vampire and Wight
Lords Init were higher than the steeds, and such were always lost.
This battle was eventually joined by a unit archers to my flank, and was
tied for 5 combat rounds in a row. I killed his general, however no
panic checks failed.
Finally, after the unit of Dryads were destroyed his warhawks charged the
flank of my main unit, wounded the vampire, killed the MTK, and destroyed
the wight lord.
This was such an incredibly close battle that we didn't know who was
going to win until the last combat. At that point, it was very clear,
however a 6 turn game probably would have turned out in my favor. His
general was dead, and most of his troops could not have withstood my
vampire.
Even though it got off to a rocky start (I insisted that we play by the
scenario 10 rules, yet the tournament organizer had given him the go
ahead in another game to play secret deployement. He also did not know
about the rules for skirmishing troops in scenario 10, and I insisted
that he follow them.) we eventually were laughing it up and having a
grand old time by the end of the battle. He even complimented me on my
"very well balanced" army.
This very same player was then CRUSHED by the Lizardmen player, who had
the advantage that his war machines (ahem ooops, sorry, I mean stegadons
and Salamanders) come from regiment points. Effectively everbody else
has their war machines coming out of character points when using 50%
regiments. Combined with the Jaguar standard and the amulet of Xapati
and the other Lizardmen only items, the woodelf player had very little
chance.
-------
===================================================================
<< So only HE Army book go through revision ?
Any other army book have more than one edition that I should be awared
of before I go off and buy some used books ? >>
The only 5th edition army books that are out at this time are; Bretonians,
Lizardmen, & High Elf. Wood Elves were written with 5th Ed. in mind so it
can also be considered 5th ed. -TPD-
HE's are the only book that has been redone and released. The chaos book has
been redone and is going to be released in November (acording to people on
this list). The WE book was releaed just before 5th edition came out and is
made FOR 5th edition so it's not going to be redone anytime soon. Bretonnian
and Lizardmen are brand new, out after 5th edition came out, so they aren't
going to be redone anytime soon. All other books were made for 4th edition
so are a little old and so it's possible some or all will be completely
redone like the HE book. But so far nothing is official. Some of them have
been revised slightly but not redone. For example the DE book has been
slightly revised to have RBT's cost 100pts and are only allowed 1 per unit
instead of the old 2. The Orc book was revised to allow savage orc foot
soldiers to carry spears IIRC. I heard (but never saw) that the Empire book
was revised to have Great Cannons cost 95pts. I know the Dwarf book was
revised but other than adding a sample army list in the back i don't know
what changed in it.
====================================================================
When I went to Cancon 97 at the beginning of the year, they had
a decent enough system. You were judged by your peers on the following
categories.
1) Painting and Army Compostion
2) Sportsmanship
3) Battle Result
Painting and Army Composition were lumped together, and this as
well as sportsmanship were judged on by your peers. At the end of the
tournament, the highest and lowest values were dropped, (it was out of
10 - 10 being the highest). This seemed to work well, of course, you
need a decent group of players who aren't going to jib everyone they
play to hopefully advance themselves.
As I said, it is good, but open to abuse.
Maybe you could include an impartial judge for each army?? Of
course, this increases the complexity of the task, but is probably the
best way of avoiding any uneccesary complications. However, this is
completely up to the judges then, and they might all have differing
ideas as to what comprises a balanced and fair army, so maybe 2 judges
who judge on every army. However, this then gets to the point where
those judges will have to be very knowledgable about all the 12 armies,
(a hard task).
Have fun anyway.,
with compliments ~~ Julian Gatt
IMO you have to judge each race seperately. As each has different things
affecting composition. For example, you really can't IMO fault an undead
player for having a level 4 plus a couple other lower level mages. They need
magic and 2 of thier 3 general choices are level 4's. Although you may think
that's a bit too much for another army. Or another example is you can't
fault a dwarven player for taking lots of war machines (or empire for that
matter). It's one of their main strengths (and VERY important for dwarves in
tourny settings) while a HE army filling our as many RBT's as possible might
seem a little too much (even under new rules). Or an Empire general on
griffon is certainly not as bas as chaos general on griffon, etc... It's
definately not an easy task... there are some things that can be general for
all armies (2 special saves IMO are on the negative side for all armies) and
others which are bad for some, needed for others.
A few general things (these are just my opinion mind you)...
-elite units (ie an army with only elite units) should be a negative for
pretty much all armies, although some armies don't cessarily have elite units
or hard to define ones. For example, CHaos doesn't really have any. And
only half of the Bretonnian knights are considered elites. Knights of the
Realm are not.
- maxing out characters is likely a negative for most armies but some can't
help it. Undead need it (they are too dependant on them) and Chaos has to
spend practically 600-700+ points on a general, level 2 mage, and champion
(all are important) so it's hard NOT to max out characters with chaos. So
this is kinda an iffy thing... however Bretonnians really don't need to spend
all 75% character allowance (no matter how "in character" it is for the army
to have lots of heroes)
-while dwarves and empire do need to spend a lot of points on war machines, a
dwarven army with 25% organ cannons should really be a negative, same with
25% hellblasters in an empire army. (IMO)
-IMO names and a little history of the characters/army/units should always be
a bonus :)
Just MO but i think the actualy games played shouild count for at LEAST 50%.
And painting should not count for so much... just a thought.
Brad
Bretonnian FAQ Council Rep
I yhave to concur. The rules were written for different races of differing
strengths in differing fields, and this should be taken into account.
A few general things (these are just my opinion mind you)...
-elite units (ie an army with only elite units) should be a negative for
pretty much all armies, although some armies don't cessarily have elite
units
or hard to define ones. For example, CHaos doesn't really have any. And
only half of the Bretonnian knights are considered elites. Knights of the
Realm are not.
Agreed again. A good general will take a force to deal with any occasion,
and so the choice will normally be a balanced representation of his races
forces.
- maxing out characters is likely a negative for most armies but some can't
help it. Undead need it (they are too dependant on them) and Chaos has to
spend practically 600-700+ points on a general, level 2 mage, and champion
(all are important) so it's hard NOT to max out characters with chaos. So
this is kinda an iffy thing... however Bretonnians really don't need to
spend
all 75% character allowance (no matter how "in character" it is for the
army
to have lots of heroes)
-while dwarves and empire do need to spend a lot of points on war machines,
a
dwarven army with 25% organ cannons should really be a negative, same with
25% hellblasters in an empire army. (IMO)
See above comments on balance.
-IMO names and a little history of the characters/army/units should always
be
a bonus :)
Most of the romantics on the list do it (just check out wargies recent
reports etc). It at least shows you have an affinity with the race, rather
than just collecting one for cheesiness sake.
Just MO but i think the actualy games played shouild count for at LEAST
50%.
And painting should not count for so much... just a thought.
YES!!! after all, you're there for a fight, not a fashion parade! Having
said that, it is allways far more asthetically(sp?) pleasing to play with
fully painted figs than bare metal.
As long as the effort has been made, it should be rewarded, no matter how
good or bad the job. I (a fair painter at best) would certainly have no
probs recievinmg the same "bonus" points as somebody who had at least gone
to the trouble of putting correct base colours on all their figs.
Regards
General Angolin "David McCallum"
====================================================================
I let characters with lances switch to any weapon they have after the round
they charge, including magic weapons. Everyone else is stuck with the
weapon they wield in the first round of combat.
As a house rule, I let my opponent switch weapons in the middle of combat
if a weapon is rendered useless, say, by the destruction or negation of
their magic weapon by a magic item.
The current rules are a bit inconsistent, so you need to come to some
understanding with your opponent. Best one I've seen: player declares the
weapon to be used at the start of combat. That weapon must be used for that
round even if it is destroyed or rendered ineffective because of enemy
magic items. At the start of each new round, models can switch to a
different weapon. RnF must all use the same weapon in any round. For
example, the wights in the front rank cannot choose to use their wight
blades while the 2nd rank uses spears.
Carmen A Tanzio
====================================================================
> I now had my first rules debate : Does the heart of woe allow a
> lookout sir ? I
> said no, he said yes, the D6 backed him up and his general survives
> (and I
> have wasted a unit ): ).
If the effect says it targets a _unit_, then characters can use the Look
Out Sir rule, If the effect says it targets a _model_, then characters
cannot avoid the effect. Since the Heart of Woe affects each model caught
in the blast, characters cannot get a Look Out Sir roll.
Carmen
====================================================================
From:
Lone Wolf
Reply-To:
warhammerfb@direwolf.com
To:
"warhammerfb@direwolf.com"
snip ... see touney.html
=======================================================
>So we play it like this.
>If WoD is cast the caster has to tell the opponent about the direction
>the template will move from its initial point.
>Then me measure the MAXIMUM RANGE in this direction (!!!) and if there's
>a unit with a dispel of a banner or natural dispel or what ever it can be
>used to dispel.
>
>This is in our opinion the MAY EFFECT thing.
Well, if that way works for you, then great. But if you do it because you
don't know the actual rule, well; A Natural Dispel only works _as a spell
is being cast_, if someone is affected by the spell at that time, they get
any natural dispells. If they will be affected by the spell only in later
turns, then the dispell no longer applies. This is pretty clear on pg 14
of the Magic Book. Playing the way you do gives Natural Dispells FAR too
much power IMO. You're allowing a unit up to the maximum range (WoD has NO
maximum range, it move 2d10" indefinitely) to dispell a spell because they
MIGHT be affected by it in a later turn of the game. I'd be pretty upset
if a unit two feet away dispelled a spell that probably would never even
reach them.
-Damian
====================================================================
Most powerful how? In combat, overall, or just psychologically? I'd think
Nagash or perhaps Egrimm Von Horstman from the Chaos book would be a good
bet. Malakith is very dangerous, and so is Arkhan. Ikit Claw is a dangerous
wizard, but sucks (comparatively) in HtH. OTOH, Skrolk is very, very
dangerous in HtH, because of the Rod. Not sure about the OG specials, but I
seem to remember Morglum is quite a handful. Lesee, Orion is dangerous, but
not in a class with Nagash. Tyrion is good as well, and I'd have to go with
Belanner as the most versatile, and one of the most powerful as well. He's
also a bargain at 555 points. Do the Lizards have anyone very powerful? I'd
think Mazdamundi would be, but IIRC his spells suck. Overall, I'd have to
pick Nagash. He's expensive, and I never see him on the table, since even
most Undead players can be shamed into not taking the big oaf.
--T. Rat
> Hey! I'm back! anywho:
>
> what do you think is the most powerfull special charachter in the game
(In General)?
>
>
>
> Why?
>
====================================================================
Wind of Death can be cast without a target under the template. Spell
movement occurs after it is cast, just like in subsequent turns, when
natural dispells definitely cannot be used to dispell it.
5th edition rules are meant to cover the case where a unit is not the named
target, but the spell forms in the unit anyway. Examples: the Skaven spell
Poison Wind and the Waaagh spell Da Krunch. Both require a template to be
initially placed on the 'target' unit. If the template starts out covering
part of another unit, then that unit is most certanly targeted, even though
it was not the announced target.
Most people I know extend this to Assault of Stones if a unit is on the
mountain that is targeted as an example of an 'indirect' target. Spell
movement occurs after the spell succeeds, and still requires a 'lucky' dice
roll, so units off the hill do not benefit from any natural or item dispell.
There is also a question of fair play. Now I know many people think the
Wind of Death spell is inherently unfair. But putting personal dislike
aside, it is very unfair to require the necromantic player to make his
random dice roll to see how far the spell goes before the opponent attempts
a dispel. If he rolls crappy, one can think, "Oh, I don't think I will
attempt a dispel with my Amulet of Fire. His template only caught a smidgin
of my unit and I can just move them away my turn. I'll save the amulet in
case he casts another spell at my unit this turn."
In short, one does not resolve the spell effect and then attempt the dispel.
Carmen
====================================================================
>So we play it like this.
>If WoD is cast the caster has to tell the opponent about the direction
>the template will move from its initial point.
>Then me measure the MAXIMUM RANGE in this direction (!!!) and if there's
>a unit with a dispel of a banner or natural dispel or what ever it can be
>used to dispel.
>
>This is in our opinion the MAY EFFECT thing.
Well, if that way works for you, then great. But if you do it because you
don't know the actual rule, well; A Natural Dispel only works _as a spell
is being cast_, if someone is affected by the spell at that time, they get
any natural dispells. If they will be affected by the spell only in later
turns, then the dispell no longer applies. This is pretty clear on pg 14
of the Magic Book. Playing the way you do gives Natural Dispells FAR too
much power IMO. You're allowing a unit up to the maximum range (WoD has NO
maximum range, it move 2d10" indefinitely) to dispell a spell because they
MIGHT be affected by it in a later turn of the game. I'd be pretty upset
if a unit two feet away dispelled a spell that probably would never even
reach them.
-Damian
====================================================================
====================================================================
Does anyone have all of the previous participants stored away somewhere?
> I would like to get a copy of every entry to date.
>
> Sir Feldamar of Carcassonne
>
>
> Andorax@idibbs.com
Yep, all the entries are stored at the archive
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/9225
(i should know, i keep the archive)
Daniel
====================================================================
====================================================================
====================================================================
====================================================================
====================================================================
====================================================================
====================================================================
====================================================================
====================================================================
====================================================================
====================================================================
====================================================================
====================================================================
>what do you think is the most powerfull special charachter in the game (In
>General)?
The most powerful is likely some monster like Nagash, Kroak or their ilk.
The Dwarf Kings are good due to their ability to change magic items. Amongst
the _best_ special characters however (for their points value and such) I
judge to be Skaw, Belannaer and Shadowblade though. Skaw and Shadowblade can
easily cause a lot more destruction than they're worth, through picking
exposed targets. Belannaer is just so all-round nice, being both an awesome
mage and a decent fighter, for merely 555 points. Great for saving points.
--Lictor
====================================================================
<< I have a question to make for all those who have participated in a
tournament, or have run one! do you have any suggestions on how to make the
evaluation on army composition? >>
A lot of it based on the variety of troop types, command figures in the
units, but most of all the choices of magic items...... or the lack thereof.
A lot of high priced, cheesy magic items will cost you points. I think
they're looking at tactics instead of overbearing characters.
GoblinGame@aol.com
====================================================================
> High magic Q:
>
> I was play warhammer the other night, I had a Temple guard unit with my
> Slann mage priest. The Slann had cast the High magic spell "Hand of
Glory".
> While Hand of Glory is in play all units within 12" from the mage pass
all
> LD test.
>
> I was charge by a large undead horseman unit, and after combat I had lost
> the combat round. Because I was outnumbered by a feared enemy, I broke
> automatically. I did not have a chance to make a LD test, witch I would
have
> pass automatically. Is this right?
>
That's true. If you are outnumbered by a feared enemy (ie, there's more of
them than you after combat and you ain't immune to fear), and they beat you
in HtH, you break without benefit of a Ld test.
> The "Hand of Glory" spell also states that all friendly unit within 12"
> rally instally and automatically. Does this mean that my unit breaks(
does
> not move) and then rally?
>
Yes. It would rally "instantly" if that is what it says on the card. I
think that's what it says...
--T. Rat
====================================================================
> Actually, the sword description says that it increases the wearers WS to
> 10. Which
> makes it perfectly legal to use it with the TK Crown. If it had said
> something like "the
> bearer strikes with a WS of 10 in combat" it wouldn't work, but it says
> (something like)
> "The bearers WS is increased to 10".
> I'm almost certain that GW didn't think about this when playtesting the
> game (surprise...)
> and I wouldn't mind at all if this combo was banned.
> - Jacob Wedin
Yup, sounds better every time I hear it ...
I had no problem with it ... no, actually ... I kinda like it.
It is my opponent that I am worry about ...
We only do up to 50 magic item .. but for convention and tournament if
blessed SW is ok then ...
well, I will do it ...
BTW: I do field M.K in my undead army with the Relic SW. You can see
the full tactic on my page.
And take a look at this, it can be deadly ...
1 unit of skelly warrior:
( a ) [AC 3+] = 4+ save (shield + Heavy armor) -> 3+ save
( b.1 ) [WS 6] = WS 2 -> WS 5 (MK ) -> WS 6
(or b.2)[WS 10] = WS 2 -> WS 10 (MK )
( c ) Enemy WS -1 = Curse book (chanpion)
( d ) combat result +3/+2 = Regiment Banner +1 (War Banner +1 combat
result) + Battle Standard banner
My offense is
66% -> to score a hit up to WS9 and
50% to hit WS 10 ...
Your offense is first decrease by 1 (due to curse book unless this is a
civil war) so if you are
[SW 1- 4] you need a "6" to score a hit or
[SW 5-10] you need "5,6" to hit
then I still have some pretty good save, 3+ is over 66% save
And if I drop my shield in hth and use a halberd then my save is still
good (50%)
then I can hit up to Toughness of 7 and
you have to do -1 to your armor save to avoid all those hits from my
WS10 skellys.
And the longer you tangle in this the worse it get because I can
increase this unit by summoning ...
The reason I think it is "point wise" cheeze is because I also consider
the fact that I can do summon to this unit lots of times ... you want to
deal with 50+ skelly, sure ...
But I bet you 2 cents someone is going to cry cheeze if I also use PofK
or BofS ...
I think it is at least at the edge of "cheeze" and "upset the balance"
...
What you think ?
Carmen A Tanzio wrote:
>
> Tony C. Ko wrote:
>
> >Magic weapon of + hit/w/... only work when in H2H.
> >I wish it too, but just no way, point-wise, cheeze-wide, or rule-wise.
>
snip
> Carmen
>
====================================================================
Make your 1500 undead and post it for crit. is one of the best way to
get detail advices ...
Stating your tactic is also helpful.
But before you start making your army, there is some reading assignment
for your General ...
NOTE: Try not to buy any magic over 50 and stay away for Ex. axe, forb.
rod, and BoA.
Skip special characters also.
RollCall is a quick and dirty way to get you started
and here is my Underd.adf (still testing and updating because some of
the rules just too value and I am asking/debating/updating on the way
...
RollCall is at
http://www.nconnect.net/~jlmartin/rollcall.htm
some ADFs are at :
http://www.shopfine.demon.co.uk/war/whfb/rollcall.htm
http://www.cynosure.com.sg/warhammer/rollcall.htm
or if you like excel then you can use AG:
http://www.ultranet.com/~valren/agdload.html
Here are some of the undead pointers on the web that I had enjoyed, some
are very good and some still missing because I had crashed my Netscape
and lost the bookmark.html 8(
So if you are not on this list please mail me your Undead/anti-undead
pointer ...
I benefit a lots for them hope it do the same for you
http://www.eden.com/~tmp/rules/fan/whfbtacu.html
http://www.ptf.hro.nl/~s0506915/undead.html
http://freespace.virgin.net/james.arscot/tactics.htm
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4753/undead.htm
http://www.ezlink.com/~tscott/UndeadTactics.html
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/9234/tactics.html
spells is very important to a Undead general, so some spell stuff to go
with it
again if there is some other spell pages I miss please e-mail me ...
http://www.ezlink.com/~tscott/BattleMagic.html
http://www.angelfire.com/sc/tethanendal/highmagic.html
mailto:tonyko@concentric.net
vertigo@connect.ab.ca wrote:
>
> Hi there, I just joined the list and want solid strategies about
> building and using a 1500 point undead army...
snip
====================================================================
1st r:
move (norma)
march move (danse)
2nd r:
move (normal)
shoot (danse) only regiment shoot
3nd r:
shoot (normal) character also shoot
shoot (danse) only regiment shoot
4d r:
shoot (norma)
march move 8"(danse)
Totally different. Crossbows don't reload. Their disadvantage is that
they cannot move and shoot. So in theory, skeleton Crossbows can shoot
twice per turn using VHDM. At 12" (short range) they are more effective
than regular humans (hit 66% as often, but shoot twice), and at longer range
they are virtually the same (hit 50% as often but shoot twice).
Lord Tuman Elnikov
FAQ Zombie
MKA Tony Scott
tscott@ezlink.com
http://www.ezlink.com/~tscott/tuman.html
On Mon, 29 Sep 1997, Tony C. Ko wrote:
>
> How you do x-bow with Danse ? Specifically.
> I cast Danse every turn on a x-bow unit for 3 turns, being x-bow firing
> once every two round ..
> How many bolts total I shoot at the end of the 3rd round magic phase ?
> GUESS 1: Guess 2:
> 1st r:
> shoot (normal) shoot
> shoot (danse) reload
> 2nd r:
> reload (norma) shoot
> shoot (danse) reload
> 3rd r:
> shoot (norma) shoot
> shoot (danse) reload
> or something totally different ?
>
> > > Not sure what you refering to about the rolls, SofD, Danse, dispell, or
> > > something else ?
> > > Please explain ...
> >
> > When casting power 1 spells (VHDM) you have an advantage with high Winds
> > of Magic rolls (frequently). Thus with high winds of magic, you can
> > generally get more of your units moving, which means that they can march
> > move at 8", plus a regular move of 4" for a total of 12". Compare that
> > to an elves march move of 10".
> >
> For help with the list send e-mail to
> This list brought to you by Direwolf Systems.
>
====================================================================
Agree, my setup is designed as a fast hitting raiding party ...
I am assuming by the book rules, the percentage ..., and no special
characters ...
and I am not fighting another undead ... (assume too much ?)
Of course with the obvious exceptions of what can be the army general
requirement rule. In this case Nacro chum is the party's Big Bone
Head. If he die everybody party!
I am also assuming the other side is doing the defence, digging in, and
time is the essence such as reinforcement arrive in # turns or I must
capture a strategic something within # turns ... u get the ideas ... A
go getter mentality ... not unseen or hear of in an undead army ...
Yea, lots of possible holes, such as if Nacro's Mist were dispelled then
it could mean major trouble ...
Need to do some play testing to see how it goes ...
Have a several variations in the bag ...
Not sure if your setup could work with the assumption I made ...
I DO like what u got thou ...
Like to see u make it a raiding party without loosing the flavor of it.
One more thing ... Won't want to face your army with my army.
Tony Scott wrote:
>
> On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Tony C. Ko wrote:
>
> >
> > Ok, 500 max this time ... and by the book ...
> > -246- Nec. champion : Staff of Flaming Death, Amber Amulet, bow, horsy
> > and barding
> > -90- Bone head warrior (x5) x-bow, L. armor, Banner Of Sorcery
> > -90- Carrion (x2)
> > -74- screaming skull cat.
> >
> > Tactic:
> > cast all spells in banner ist, get a mist going , then move up and use
> > Staff, summon worrior
> > Carrion flyhigh if no flying creatures on the other side, drop on
> > fleeing regiment
> > backup the worrior if h2h is ever going to happen
> > worrior move up
>
> Be careful with this setup, as the Necromancer can be picked off easily
> by bow fire. I still think that crossbows are not worth their effort or
> cost for skeletons. This is a very "shooty" army, and any HtH will
> doubtless destroy you. Beware of heavy cavalry or elves toting bows.
> They will quickly and easily destroy this army.
>
> Dark mist, while a cools spell, would be better replaced (IMO) by a 1
> point summon skeletons spell, or perhaps VHDM.
>
> Here's an alternative;
>
> Cost
> ----
> 217 Necro Champion - Cursed Book, Amber Amulet, Halberd, Bow
>
> 145 Skeletons (x11) halberd & banner of sorcery
>
> 28 Zombies (x7) act as screening unit for skeletons
>
> 50 Skeletons (x5) double handed weapon + banner
>
> 50 Skeletons (x5) double handed weapon+ banner
> ---
> 500 points total
>
> This tactic is much more of a "come and get it" type army. With the
> Banner of Sorcery, you summon more and more skeletons where-ever you need
> them.
>
> The zombie screening unit will prevent a single unit of cavalry from
> charging you, hopefully it will crumble and dissapear after their charge.
>
> You then charge, with your 3 attacks at WS5 S5 from the Necro, and the
> skeletons with halberds, you'll win the combat and probably outnumber
> them. Then you've got a 50% chance of running them down.
>
> The two double handed weapon skeleton units are to make sure they don't
> try any sneaky flaking stuff. Just shamble forward and destroy anything
> in your path. You'll be amazed at how well the cursed book works.
>
> Lord Tuman Elnikov
> FAQ Zombie
> MKA Tony Scott
> tscott@ezlink.com
> http://www.ezlink.com/~tscott/tuman.html
=========================================================================
Keep in mind that we are specifically talking about Undead here...
On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Tony C. Ko wrote:
>
> There is no champion for Chariot war machine, check ...
"...or he may ride in an Undead Chariot (+40 points, +60 points if it has
scythed wheels) if he is leading a unit of Undead Chariots."
> Don't have Chaos book ... Regiment Chariot cannot have champion rideing
> with crews ? ok ... New rules from WE book don't have regiment chariot
> anymore ... so no champ on chariot ... ok.
Maybe so for other races, but not so for Undead.
> Still, crews should be available for mount, just pay for the dam thing
> ... Everybody can do it so balance is really not a problem ... well,
> Undead do have a bit of advantage in doing the Fear count ... beside
> that my bone head don't see what the big deal is ...
It gives you an additional 50% save from shooting or HtH. As you
mentioned the fear thing turns it into a 5 model unit for removing
flanks. It also gives another attack, and somthing to control the
chariot if the Champion happens to get wasted.
> How do I submit the following to a FAQ debate/ruling ? Don't care much
> about house ruling ...
> "Character Chariot May option can include crew(s) and must add cost
> accordingly."
For the same reason that Undead cannot have pistols, an Undead champion cannot
purchase extra crew-members. This is not an appropriate FAQ question,
and even if it were proposed, I can pretty much guarantee that it would
be voted down. The role of the FAQ is not to provide additional options
to characters or regiments that they don't already have.
Sorry...
Lord Tuman Elnikov
FAQ Zombie
MKA Tony Scott
tscott@ezlink.com
http://www.ezlink.com/~tscott/tuman.html
> Tony Scott wrote:
> >
> > No a champion cannot have crew members for the same reasons that a
> > general or hero cannot. He can join the unit on foot, but he can't ride.
> >
> > You can certainly adopt a house rule with your gaming group, however
> > don't count on anyone else using them. While they are not excedingly
> > important, it is an advantage.
> >
=========================================================================
You have got it wrong!
You correctly state that :-
> "One chariot may carry a magic standard chosen from the appropriate
> magic standard cards at the point cost indicated on the card itself.
> See Warhammer Magic. Note that although chariots may be festooned
> with flags, banners or pennants, these are not regimental standards
> and may be regarded as purely decorative. A chariot receives no
> combat bonus on acount of these."
But incorrectly concluded that you dont get the +1 combat resolution.
There are two parts to the above statement :-
1,
> "One chariot may carry a magic standard chosen from the appropriate
> magic standard cards at the point cost indicated on the card itself.
Yup, chariots can have a Magical Standard,
2,
> See Warhammer Magic. Note that although chariots may be festooned
> with flags, banners or pennants, these are not regimental standards
> and may be regarded as purely decorative. A chariot receives no
> combat bonus on acount of these."
Chariots may have banners/pennants but these ''are not regimental standards''
and ''a chariot receives no combat bonus on account of these''. The last bit was
refering to the banners/pennants not giving a +1 combat resolution, and not the
Magical Standard.
Giving a Magical Standard to a chariot does not double the cost of a chariot.
You DO get the +1 combat resolution for the unit's standard, but only if it is not a
Magical Standard.
Harlequin Master
==========================================================================
On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Damian Smart wrote:
> >(1.b) However, if the same Chariot Regiment champion choose to buy a
> >chariot mount for himself ...
> >How many chariots I have now in the Regiment ? Two ?
> >Is this Champion riding alone in his mount or with 2 crews ?
>
> Since there aren't any Chariot regiments, this should be self explantory.
> You don't add champion to an existing chariot, you buy a champion with the
> chariot as his Mey Ride option. And you always have two crew, a character
> is added to make three.
Damians answer is not correct. There is nothing written that allows a
character to hop onto a chariot that was not purchased from war machine
points. Otherwise, one would never purchase chariots from character points.
A champion may purchase a chariot, and it comes without crew. He rides
it all by himself.
This would mean that there are 2 chariots, one with 2 crew members, and 1
with only the champion. Of course champions in chariot "units" confer
very little advantage, unlike normal troops.
Lord Tuman Elnikov
FAQ Zombie
MKA Tony Scott
tscott@ezlink.com
http://www.ezlink.com/~tscott/tuman.html
=============================================================================
> >There are at least three type of undead troops not in the army list ...
> >Undead Army Book
> >pg 7
> >(1)Golems of Bone (same as bone giant ?)
>
> This would be cool. I have an undead giant miniature already, and someone
> created their own rules for it, but the URL of their page escapes me.
>
I think it would be cool to have something more dryad-sized, maybe:
M4 WS 3 BS 0 S 5 T 5 W 2 I 2 A 2 L 5, double handed weapon, heavy armor
Like big tough skeletons. Maybe could fight in skeletal units like Kroxigars in skinks.
> >(2)Bolt Throwers : fire the thigh-bones of giants wound round with deadly runes
>
> Nah, Bolt Throwers are done to death by other armies anyway.
>
> >pg 10
> >(3)The disciples of Nagash: the only living things within this vast
> >fortress (NAGASHIZZAR), these madmen ... cult ...
>
> I'd say these guys are Necromancers of various levels.
>
> - -Damian
>
Some Necromancr leaders, mostly ghouls maybe.
"descendants of insane and evil hearted cannibals"
-craig
> >pg 7
> >(1)Golems of Bone (same as bone giant ?)
>
> This would be cool. I have an undead giant miniature already, and someone
> created their own rules for it, but the URL of their page escapes me.
>
There are several, actually. Mine is http:\\www.ultranet.com\~valren
=================================================================================
UA
pg 5
Undead mercenaries:
The company of the Damned is a group of Undead mercenaries who ...
returned to seek a terrible vengeance.
Undeaded Kislevites
The northern border of the Troll Country ... is patrolled by ... These
Undeaded Kislevites ..
pg 6
Dark Lords of Nagas (Wraith Lords) only 5 in existance
Greatest of the lesser Undead are the Wraiths. ...
Mightiest of the Wraiths are the Dark Lords of Nagash, those five fell
beings who ...
Krell on UA pg 94 is one of the Dark Lords ...
================================================================================
At 01:35 AM 9/23/97 -0700, Tony C. Ko wrote:
>> This is in the Undead book, not the Magic book. The only units that can
>> have a regimental standard bearer with magic banner are Skeleton Horsemen
>> and Skeleton Warriors.
>> >
>
>miss that ! what page ?
>pg 79 Some regiments are permitted magic standards. Rules and magic item
>cards for ... found in Warhammer Battle Magic.
Look under the Options for each troop type. For those two types it says
"Any regiment may have a magic banner". It doesn't say that under the
Options for any other Undead troop.
-Damian
==================================================================================
<< Wrong, there is nothing in the rules that prohibits having both a Nec
Lord and a Liche in the same army. >>
Sorry you are wrong. You cannot have two "general" characters unless you are
using special characters. So you cannot have both a generic necro lord and
generic liche. Note: UA 79 - only One characte under general catagoly may be selected
and must be a general.
<>
Actually no they do not. The have what the army book lists them with.
Wraith champions are only listed as having swords. So you must buy scythes
(or whatever other weapon) you want.
<<>Can skelly Horsemen's horsy have barding ?
>Guess: No.
They do not get Barding, but you can buy it.>>
No skeleton horsemn troops cannot buy barding. it's not listed as an option
for the troop type. Only characters who are riding steeds can buy barding
for the steeds.
Brad
Bretonnian FAQ Council Rep
====================================================================================
On Sun, 21 Sep 1997, Tony C. Ko wrote:
>
> Great, almost done with the undead.adf ...
>
> Hay ! there is a few more in the closet ...
>
> Undead Generals are exclusive (not talking about special char.)
> ex. Can an army with a Nec. Lord general have a liche in the army ...
> Guess: No
Correct, as sucky as that is.
> When Wight Lord, Wraith/Wight champions fail break test are they
> destroyed ? How about Battle Standard bearer ?
> Guess: no, no/no, no. These are all characters.
Wrong. They are subject to all the special rules of the RnF, which means
destroyed on break tests. Ouch!
> Do Ghouls need break test when general die ? No break test (living
> creatures) ... or they always flee ?
> Guess: urr, hmm, hehe ... me hide in the closet.
There are no rules to say otherwise, but its silly to believe that the
living ghouls would simply crumble. Perhaps they flee and don't come
back, but luckily I don't use ghouls so I've never run across the situation.
> Do Wraith champions come with a free scythe ?
> Guess: No, u have to pay those dam dones.
Since they are only subject to the special rule, and not the equipment,
officially they don't. However a reasonable opponent/gaming group would
allow the same equipment, and perhaps even trade-ins.
> Can skelly Horsemen's horsy have barding ?
> Guess: No.
Nope. Not in it's list, therefore not available. Bummer eh?
Lord Tuman Elnikov
FAQ Zombie
MKA Tony Scott
tscott@ezlink.com
http://www.ezlink.com/~tscott/tuman.html
======================================================================
Well, I just finished my first two battles using Undead in a campaign. My
territories
were Shrine (3rd level mage and 50 pt Magic item), Forest (+1 War machine),
Trade Route
(+1 50 magic item), and a spy.
Lost the first game vs Wood Elves 2-3 VP. Pretty inconclusive battle,
with most VP coming from contolling the board quadrants. I lost my forest,
gained a village (unit champion).
The second game was a knock-down, drag out 6 turn fight against High
Elves. Here are our
lists:
High Elves:
General with *Ogre blade
2nd level Mage with Drain Magic and Banishment (nasty draw huh?)
2 units of ~25 elves each, with spears, hvy armor and shield
53 archers in 4-5 units, cant remember exactly
1 Repeating bolt thrower
Undead:
(I designed this list specifically to fight vs High magic)
Necromancer Lord, Summon Undead Horde, Curse of Years, Wind of Death,
VanHels Danse Macabre, *Black Amulet, *Staff of Damnation, *Book of Secrets
Necromancer, Raise the Dead
Wraith Champion, double handed weapon, heavy armor
5 skeletons
5 skeletons
18 skeletons, std, mus
18 skeletons, light armor, shields, spears, std, mus
6 ghosts
undead chariot, 2 bows
Deployment was fairly straitforward, except his bolt thrower was up on a
tower in the middle
of his deployment zone. Each elf spearman unit had a character...his
general in one, mage
in the other. My wraith was in skeletal spear unit, both necromancers in
ghost unit.
Turn 1:
High Elves fire huge volley, killed both 5-skeleton screening units, do 2
wounds to the
chariots body. Magic phase, Elves drain magic and My necromancer lord
loses 1 level and
Wind of Death. I store a couple of power cards.
My undead horde shambles forward. Chariot fires 2 arrows. Magic phase, I
cast
VanHels, store a couple of dispels.
Turn 2:
High Elves fire more arrows. My skeletal spear unit is whittled down to
about
10 skeletons. My chariot is destoyed.
We shamble forward again. I unleahed with the book of secrets, marching
my army
into charge range, summoning a skeleton chariot behind the Elven General's
spear unit, and
hitting them with Curse of Years - killing about 8. I also reinforce my
skeletal spear unit.
The High Elf mage was dispelling the whole time.... my Necromancers stats
after this magical
onslaught were: M3 WS 1 BS 0 S 5 T 2 W 4 I 1 A 5 L 10.
Turn 3:
At this point my opponent made a crucial mistake. He turned his General's
Spear unit
around to face the chariot behind him. Archers also turn and end up
destroying the chariot anyway.
The Mage dispels Curse of ages.
My skeletal unit charges the Generals Spear unit from behind, autobreaking
them because they were outnumbered, pursuing but not catching them. Before
he had a chance to rally, I used VanHels to
charge again and off the board we both go.
Turn 4:
The Mages Spear unit fails a terror test from my wraith and flee. Many
arrows fly.
My Skeletal spearman pursue the Mage's unit from the table.
My other skeletal unit returns from chasing the general.
Turn 5:
The Elves, knowing that my necromancer lord is weak from the book of
secrets, mount
an agressive counterattack on the ghost unit, knowing that if they can
break the unit the battle is won.
The elves move into a position to charge from two sides on turn 6.
My skeletal regiment charges one group of elves, who fail their FEAR check
and run.
My skeletal spearmen move, the using VanHels, charge the biggest unit of
archers from behind.
Turn 6:
During my opponent's HTH phase, my skeletons autobreak the big unit of
archers. His attack on my Necromancer Lord broken up, and his force
scattered and fleeing, my opponent concedes.
I gain a town from this battle.
This battle was actually closer than this report might make it sound. His
arrows were
hellishly effective, forcing me to use what spells I could get off to
reinforce my units. Casting
spells was nearly impossible without using the Book of Secrets due to his
ability to use power
cards as dispels. The turn his mage broke, he had Total Power in his hand
and was about to
move within Banishment range of my big Skeletal spear unit and worse:
within range of my
Necromancer/Ghost unit. Observers noted that if he would have been more
agressive with his
General's spear unit he would have wiped out most of my army. On the 5th
turn he had a unit
of archers with 3 ranks and another with 2 about to charge my necromancer's
unit, but thanks to
Vanhels I was able to chase them off at the last minute.
These are the first two battles I have fought with undead, and the first
time either of
my opponents have fought Undead.
-craig
=========================================================================
I am not certain about this .. so lets kick it around a bit.
PRO:
to repair one horsemen cost 2 pips and odd point must be thrown out ...
so 2/4/6 -> repair 1/2/3 it is expensive to try to repair a horsemen.
dice 3 get 3
warriors but only fix one horsemen. dice 1 will have nothing ... a
wasted spell.
Pro:
4+ save is better than AC 5 save --- not much ... 50% vs 33%, however
...
if there is a -1 modifier somewhere then from 5+ drop to 6+ can mean a
big differece of
33% vs 16% save (33=16x2+1 ! so it is a 50% save drop!). We all know
people love halberd,
x-bow, pistals, and S4 critter ... so your horsemen save rate just went
bye bye and the horsemen is now called HorseFly, drop like flys.
Fast cavalry: 5+ is fast cavalry ... who care ? I got Dance and skelly
don't march anyway ...
CON:
Fast cavalry: snake, free wheeling, and free formation change is pretty good ... even
skelly never march.
Con:
Without armour horsemen is cheaper ... but at what price (pro)?
Conclusion:
4+ seen to be better ... depend on how much weight you put on the snake, free wheel,
adn free formation change capabilities ... Free wheeling counts lots I'd say ...
any thing I missing here ?
=========================================================================
It depends on your perspective. I view Banishment as a very offensive
spell indeed! :)
I must agree that FC needs to be fixed, however it amplifies the problem
when you have a 5 in 7 (71%) chance of getting it. At least when you've
only got a 5 in 10 chance (50%) you'll only see it 1/2 the time.
Actually, FC should probably go off at the END of the magic phase, not
the beginning. That would solve it completely.
Lord Tuman Elnikov
FAQ Zombie
MKA Tony Scott
tscott@ezlink.com
http://www.ezlink.com/~tscott/tuman.html
On Fri, 3 Oct 1997, Tim Ray wrote:
>
> > > I like limiting the power three spells more than cutting the level four
> > > mages out of the game, because it results in fewer special rules. It
> also
> > > means that you don't have to cut total power from the magic deck, since
> a
> > > TPd power two spell just might not win the game for you, but a TPd
> power
> > > three might (plague springs instantly to mind).
> > >
> > Except that that makes Fiery Convocation just that much more likely to be
>
> > picked and is then in many ways the most powerful spell in the deck.
> > Thus, I don't like limiting power 3 spells, unless Fiery Convocation is
> > also removed. Not very likely, but it is my opinion.
> >
> It would be good if FC got limited in some way. I think you ought to have a
> chance to dispell it before it goes off the second time. Wouldn't mind that
> as a house rule at all. Balancing Fiery Convocation is not (IMNSHO; career
> game designer) a matter of having more powerful spells than it, nor bumping
> the odds of not getting the spell, if you can get High Magic at all. It's a
> matter of fixing Fiery Convocation... It is the only power two attack spell
> High Magic has, after all. Removing it is asking a bit much. In fact, isn't
> it the only attack spell the High deck has, aside from assault of Stone and
> Tempest (both power three), and Glamour of Teclis (which does no damage,
> just makes it chancy to move)?
> --T. Rat
> >
> > Lord Tuman Elnikov
It would be good if FC got limited in some way. I think you ought to have a
chance to dispell it before it goes off the second time. Wouldn't mind that
as a house rule at all. Balancing Fiery Convocation is not (IMNSHO; career
game designer) a matter of having more powerful spells than it, nor bumping
the odds of not getting the spell, if you can get High Magic at all. It's a
matter of fixing Fiery Convocation... It is the only power two attack spell
High Magic has, after all. Removing it is asking a bit much. In fact, isn't
it the only attack spell the High deck has, aside from assault of Stone and
Tempest (both power three), and Glamour of Teclis (which does no damage,
just makes it chancy to move)?
=========================================================================
Yup, great way to see my wight with HoW go boom on his face! Just love
this banner ...
James Guidotti wrote:
>
> > I have a question about the Banner of Arcane Protection:
> > There are two different rulings on this item,
> > 1) Undead and daemons in basecontact with the std-bearer are autowounded
> > or
> > 2) Undead and daemons in basecaontact with the unit with the banner are
> > autowounded.
>
> According to my Magic book page 43, it says "any undead/daemon model
> in base contact with a UNIT carrying this banner suffers one wound..."
>
> vampire
=========================================================================
>How about flying high mage vs ground units or ground mage vs flying high
>units ...
It's on the same page in the rulebook, pg 74, "While up high models may not
shoot weapons at models on the table, cast spells on to the table, or do
anything to troops on the table. Similarly, a model that is up high cannot
be shot at by troops on the table, or have spells cast on it by wizards on
the table."
>How about flying high mage vs ground units or ground mage vs flying high
>units ...
It's on the same page in the rulebook, pg 74, "While up high models may not
shoot weapons at models on the table, cast spells on to the table, or do
anything to troops on the table. Similarly, a model that is up high cannot
be shot at by troops on the table, or have spells cast on it by wizards on
the table."
=========================================================================
I've always been under the impression that you have to have 5 flankers in
order to get any bonus at all. Probably regardless of the actual rules,
I'm sure that's how we'll continue to play it because it would simply
upset game balance. Combat is too often decided in the first round
anyway, and I think that having a single figure lapping negate rank bonus
would be far too powerful.>Out of curiousity, do you (the way you play happens
to differ from the way
>I play) require 5 flankers on the same side or do 2 on one and 3 on the
>other qualify?
>
>In other words you require 5 flankers to get bonuses. Can it look like
>this
>
> FFFF
>FEEEEF
>FEEEEF
>FEEEE
>
>Where F's are friends or flankers and E is enemies.
>or must all 5 of the flankers by on one side in order to get the bonus?
>
>laters,
>-Greg
According to the 5th edition rulebook on page 45 in the lapping around
section under combat bonuses I quote:
"Howver, units which are lapping round DO receive the extra bonuses for
falnk and rear attacks so long as the entire unit consists of five or more
models."
So I would say the answe to your question is yes. (Though you do need
another unit in the front row, since you have to cover the entire row before
you can lap.)
shadow
=========================================================================
>
Heres a Cheese question a mate down the club said I should put a Tomb
King in my army give him the Blessed Sword WS10 and the Tomb Kings Crown
any undead within 12 inches can use the Mummies WS and BS. He says they
would get the revised WS10 instead of the normal 4 is this true cos if
it is, its a right con and I wouldn't like to see this combo used on me?
> >
yes it is true... the blessed sword gives the mummy a weapon skill
of ten, and the crown gives the mummy's ws to all undead within 12 inches...
if only I could get the territories to do this in the campaign :(...
zombies with ws 10 for 4 points each... damn :) 5 points with two handed weapons
> No, this is NOT true, each magic item works separate (sp?) of another. The
> crown gives the Undead thingies the TOMB KING'S weapon skill, not the magic
> weapons weapon skill ;-{ (Mustashio Man!) ----------
<< Magic weapon of + hit/w/... only work when in H2H.
I wish it too, but just no way, point-wise, cheeze-wide, or rule-wise. >>
---
Not to offend but i don't think there is any rule that says magic weapons
only have affects in HtH. Sure some only affect HtH, others don't.
Increasing WS may not only affect HtH. So while it's probably often a good
convention i don't think there is a rule to that affect (if there is a rule
to this affect please quote it). So i beleive by the wording on the two
cards it IS legal to give a Mummy Tomb King the Blessed Sword and Tomb King's
Crown and give the skeletons WS 10. I don't like it but... :)
---
Actually, the sword description says that it increases the wearers WS to
10. Which makes it perfectly legal to use it with the TK Crown. If it had said
something like "the bearer strikes with a WS of 10 in combat" it wouldn't work,
but it says (something like)
"The bearers WS is increased to 10".
I'm almost certain that GW didn't think about this when playtesting the
game (surprise...) and I wouldn't mind at all if this combo was banned.
- Jacob Wedin
=========================================================================
Welcome to the list David.
One of my favorite aspects about the skaven are their clans. Different
clans have different troop types.When deciding which figures to buy for my
army I tried to pick a favorite clan. Maybe its just me, but it seems a
little odd to see an army led by a Queek Headtaker of Clan Mors, with a few
monks from Clan Pestilens, a few gutter runners from Clan Eshin, a few war
machines from Clan Skyre.
I included a breakdown of the various skaven troops by clan (in my opinion)
There are four major clans represented in the army list. These are Skyre
(if you like skaven war machines), Pestilens (if you like frenzied troops
and plague censer bearers), Moulder (if you like Rat Ogres, Giant Rats and
monsters), and Mors (if you like Stormvermin and Clanrats)
Clan Skyre
Ikit Claw
Warpfire Thrower Teams
Doomwheels
Jezzail Teams
Screaming Bells
Poison Wind Globadiers
Clanrats
Stormvermin
Skavenslaves
Warlocks (levels 1-3 mages)
Champions
Chieftains
Battle Standard
Warlord General
Clan Pestilens
Lord Skrolk
Warlord General, Battle Standard, Chieftains, Champions
Plague Priests
Skavenslaves
Plague Monks
Plague Censer Bearers
Clan Moulder
Throt the Unclean
Warlord General, Battle Standard, Chieftains, Champions
Stormvermin
Clanrats
Skavenslaves
Packmasters w/Rat Ogres or Giant Rats
Ratswarms, Chimera, Cockatrice, Giant Scorpion, Giant Spider, Harpy
Hydra, Manticore, Wyvern, Other Swarms
Clan Mors
Queek Headtaker
Warlord General,.Battle Standard, Chieftains, Champions
Stormvermin
Clanrats
Skavenslaves
In addition to these four major clans there are two smaller groups: Clan
Eshin (who hire themselves out as mercenaries, therefore they can logically
be used as an auxillury force with any of the other clans) and the Grey
Seers (who hold themselves aloof from clan politics, so they likewise can
aid any of the clans they choose).
Clan Eshin
Deathmaster Snikch
Gutter Runners
Assassins
Grey Seers
Thanquol and Boneripper
Grey Seers
Vermin Lords (summoned by Grey Seers)
If I were you, I would read through the skaven book and decide which
special characters or troop types appeal to you personally. I find Skrolk,
the plague monks and the plague censer bearers the most interesting.
Hopefully, one clan will contain the majority of you favorite skaven.
Now I realize that limiting yourself to one clan may seem like putting
yourself at a disadvantage. First, I'm not saying that you CANNOT have a
Doomwheel in a Clan Pestilens Army. What I am trying to do is to give you
a focus for your army. I firmly believe that ANY of these clans can be put
together into a strong army.
Once you have picked your clan, go out and buy some models. Its a good
idea to get started painting right away. It has taken me about 8 months to
purchase and paint two 2000 point armies (Skaven and Orc and Goblin). I
would suggest starting with one big block unit such as Plague Monks,
Stormvermin or Clanrats and one special character such as Queek or a
Warlord General. This way you can paint up the dozens of rank and file
troops you will need to form the chittering hordes of the Skaven as well
as a single model which you can lavish hours of time painting to
perfection.
Well, I hope this post has helped you begin to develop your master plan for
creating an army. I realize that you may have been looking for more
specific tactics such as
"give the Plague Priest the Bands of Power and the Blade of Striking Steel
for 6 auto hits at Str 8." However, if you are just starting to build a
skaven army, you will have plenty of time to learn all the tricks. For now
concentrate on saving money to spend on dozens of rank and file and
painting all those little guys.
Good Luck,
May our Father the Horned Rat (and Uncle Nurgle) Bless You
Brian
BANDL@ipa.net
=========================================================================
Wow I'll have to try this sometime.
I think, like so many other tactics that can be employed in WHFB, this is
one tactic that people need to come up with a defense against. I don't
think it's cheezy. WEs after all are archers.
How about trying this.
1. Skirmishing cavalry, they have no restrictions in woods. Even units
of five each can run them right off the table.
2. Make up an army of all skirmishers, if your army can. If not, then try
an army of many many small units. He has to designate which units he is
firing at. He can't get them all. You have to use keen tactics so that
you don't lose too many VPs. You can eat him up with 3-4 halflings per WE
scout. They don't have restrictions in woods either. I promise, they can
tie them up the whole game.
3. Make up an all magic army, and bombard them with magic. Have the army
hiding as much as possible.
4. There are ways to make some units almost impervious (shield tolos, ruby
chalice, silver seal, etc.) to S3 bows. I know they have a -1 save but
they have to wound you first.
5. Find combos of units that are not restricted in woods, almost every
army has something like that. Make an army entirely out of those units.
Hope this helps at all.
BE CAREFULL - He can change his strategy any time he wants. It's part of
the game.
ALSO - ask him to be like a DRYAD or WAR DANCER - He has to change his
aspect/dance every round.
>Is this cheesy or not?
>
>A wood elf army consisting of 65-75 scouts broken down into VP sound units
>of 12 (11?) and a general with a special save and the bow of Loren.
>Rarely, a treeman is included to make people 'shut up'.
>
>No 'regular' (non-elite) units. No ranks, no standards, and no desire for
>combat. His style of play is to shoot for 1-2 turns destoying (and believe
>me with 75 shots hitting on a 3+ he can) a unit or two and then hiding
>in the woods and contesting table quarters on the last turn. He usually
>either wins 3-1 (2 units plus 2 table quarters vs. a table quarter) or
>occasionally 10-1 (he has shoot 2 armies out of existance down to the
>MAN!).
>
>Is this fair? How can I get people not to complain about him or more
>importantly how can you beat an army like this?
>
>Flyers (like griffons and chimera's) are hard as they can fail their bound
>monster checks (unless they have a rider and then lets see what 80 shots
>at a large target with T4 can do!!!) and if they go high he uses the sky
>arrow and they just runs away from them into the woods (and has the
>rest of the army shoot the life out of it).
>
>Cavalry are useless as he can often get (even into chaos knights) a
>good 55+ hits a turn causes 17 wounds (even if you only fail on a 6
>a unit of 6 knights should die in 2 turns). Infantry, he just runs around
>and never engages.
>
>What can I tell the other players (besides just don't play him?).
>
>The problem is, is that he is a nice guy (for the most part, and
>despite being a 40K player at heart) and that he
>actually seems to think that this is fun. But I'm afraid he may run
>out of opponants soon.
>
>What do others think?
>
>-Zak | |
=========================================================================
>I have a question about the Banner of Arcane Protection:
The wording of the card can be interpreted to mean only undead in contact
with the standard bearer are affected, but the wording is a bit vague. The
item summary in the book explicitly says all undead in contact with the
unit are affected. The 4th edition card also explicitly wounded all undead
in base contact with the unit.
You make the call.
=========================================================================
Yup, sounds better every time I hear it ...
I had no problem with it ... no, actually ... I kinda like it.
It is my opponent that I am worry about ...
We only do up to 50 magic item .. but for convention and tournament if
blessed SW is ok then ...
well, I will do it ...
BTW: I do field M.K in my undead army with the Relic SW. You can see
the full tactic on my page.
And take a look at this, it can be deadly ...
1 unit of skelly warrior:
( a ) [AC 3+] = 4+ save (shield + Heavy armor) -> 3+ save
( b.1 ) [WS 6] = WS 2 -> WS 5 (MK ) -> WS 6
(or b.2)[WS 10] = WS 2 -> WS 10 (MK )
( c ) Enemy WS -1 = Curse book (chanpion)
( d ) combat result +3/+2 = Regiment Banner +1 (War Banner +1 combat
result) + Battle Standard banner
My offense is
66% -> to score a hit up to WS9 and
50% to hit WS 10 ...
Your offense is first decrease by 1 (due to curse book unless this is a
civil war) so if you are
[SW 1- 4] you need a "6" to score a hit or
[SW 5-10] you need "5,6" to hit
then I still have some pretty good save, 3+ is over 66% save
And if I drop my shield in hth and use a halberd then my save is still
good (50%)
then I can hit up to Toughness of 7 and
you have to do -1 to your armor save to avoid all those hits from my
WS10 skellys.
And the longer you tangle in this the worse it get because I can
increase this unit by summoning ...
The reason I think it is "point wise" cheeze is because I also consider
the fact that I can do summon to this unit lots of times ... you want to
deal with 50+ skelly, sure ...
But I bet you 2 cents someone is going to cry cheeze if I also use PofK
or BofS ...
I think it is at least at the edge of "cheeze" and "upset the balance"
...
What you think ?
=================================================================
>Someone actually use them Wight Cavalry !! Was it worth it ?
>Me think it too expensive in 2,000 , 3,000+ maybe
I used this once with 6 Wight Cav with Vampire Count, in a battle
against High Elves. Ended up getting charged by Dragon Princes
(Not sure of the number) with General, Wizard, and BSB. I couldn't
get a supporting unit in to help, but the T4 3+ save, and 3 wounds
combined with Danse attacks when I could get one off eventually
resulted in the DPs breaking and running off the board, taking the
characters and BSB with them. I lost my Vamp and 2 wights. It was a
grim battle, and I have since promised my HE opponent that he will
not face Wight Cav like that again.
Oh, and it was an ~2500 point game, IIRC.
I highly recommend Wight Cav vs. HE archers... T4 for only 33%
wounded, and then 3+ save for 66% saved! Then it takes 3 hits to kill
one Wight.
I did sweat out a couple of break test rolls, but managed to
pass them.
The real advantage was that every time I scored a wound, I knocked
off an attack. He only did that every 3rd time.
=================================================================
<< It's in the rulebook on pg 74, "While up high models may not shoot
missile weapons, use breath template weapons, or cast spells
against each other." >>
> When can you dring the potion ? Any phase ? Last how long ?
>
Potion of Strength
10 Points
The bearer can drink the potion at the start of any of his turns and his
Strength is increased by +3 for that turn. There is only enough potion
for one use.
=================================================================
owdy Tony,
Well on the questions it looks like we did pretty good.
Consensus is that the Wight Champ doesn't get the
doomrider auto hit so I can live with that. Sort of a split
on the use of a Dispel Scroll while flying high so we'll roll
it off as the situation arises.
Couldn't think of anything else to give the Skel Horsemens
Wight champ for under 10 points then the Armor of Endurance.
So the
Ruby Chalice is out. You can't give multiple Potions of
Strength like you can with Dispel Scrolls either. :(
The Skull Chucker worked in 1 game and did zip in the other.
Took out 5 White Lions with an accurate guess and hit roll but
scattered out of range vs the Orcs. I'll give it a couple more tries
while I finish up my 2nd Chariot and then switch to dual Chariots.
Love them D6+2 Auto Hits.
One thing I found is that given my plan of using the Zombies
as a screen and advancing behind them with the Horsemen/
Skeletons/Chariot in line abreast it's critical not to fall into the
temptation to split off one of the flank units vs a juicy target.
The plan works much better when the enemy hit's the Zombies,
they crumble and then all 3 units converge on the enemy unit
trying to climb over the Zombie goo.
I'll try some more battles this weekend this time with the Skel
Warriors using Spears instead. The Cursed Book/Banner of
Might combo should make the extra attacks wortwhile. I found
myself gettting 1 or 2 attacks at most with the Halberds.
Thanks again to all for the help!
Later, Mike S.
=================================================================
David wrote:
But I´m wondeering: Is it good to have packmasters and PLENTY of giant
rats/rat swarms? I´m planning to have much much of these models so stop me
if I´m doing the wrong thing....
You seem to be planning to buy a lot a giant rats and packmasters and/or
ratswarms. If you like the idea of lots and lots of rats, then go ahead
and buy them.
Giant Rats cost only 2.5 points each! so they are very cheap.
This means that you can have lots of them.
However, they have WS 2 and S 3 so they aren't very good at fighting.
These rats will have four main uses.
1) Guard your flanks.
Skaven get a special bonus for having lots of ranks. If they get attacked
in the flank they lose this bonus. Therefore, if you put large numbers of
cheap giant rats on your flanks, the enemy will have to spend his time
killing off all of the rats before he can attack your flank.
2) "Trap" enemy elites.
Many armies have units which are VERY powerful in hand to hand combat.
These units are also very expensive in terms of points. Let's say that
your opponant has a unit of 10 Chaos Knights (800 pts!) Now the best
thing to do would be to destroy this unit. However, this would also be
very difficult. The second best thing to do would be to "neutralize" this
unit. A good way to neutralize it would be to "trap" it with giant rats.
This means that if you can get his knights to fight your rats (18 rats, 3
packmasters) for several turns he is spending 800 points to kill only 84
points of rats and packmasters.
3) Absorb missile casualties.
If you are planning on fighting against elves or someone else who uses a
lot of archers you may want to use your rats to protect the rest of your
troops from missile fire. If you place a long line of rats across the
front of your army the enemy archers will be forced to shoot at the 3 pt.
rats rather than the rest of your army.
4) Stop enemy charges and allow you to counter-charge.
This long line of rats in front of your army also serves a second purpose.
If you place them less than 10 inches in front of the rest of your army
they will serve as a "crumble" unit. Let me illustrate what this means:
Step 1 - an enemy unit charges your long line of rats. Step 2 - your rats
lose the combat and flee (make sure that the enemy kills your packmasters!
there death causes the rats to only have a 4 ld) Step 3 - the enemy unit
which just charged is not within 10 inches of the rest of your army. You
charge him!
Ratswarms are similar with a few differences.
First, they can be purchased at half price! (only 50 pts.) Call me a
sucker, but it is hard to resist that kind of bargain. They have a WS 3
and S 3 so they aren't that great at fighting. The best part about them
(aside from being cheap) is that they have W 5, Ld 10 and are immune to
psychology. This means that they will keep fighting until they are all
killed. The only drawback is that they all congregate into one giant
horde.
1) Guard your flanks.
They are even better than Giant Rats at guarding your flanks because they
will never run away. The problem is, they can only guard 1 of your flanks
because they all must be together in one big group.
2) "Trap" enemy elites.
Once again they are even better than Giant Rats at trapping enemy elites
because they will not run away.
3) Absorb missile casualties
They do this just as well as the Giant Rats.
4) Stop enemy charges and allow you to counter-charge.
They cannot do this, because they will not run away and allow you to
counter charge.
All in all, if you like rats, I would encourage you to buy one big unit
(2-4) of ratswarms. This would be placed on one flank. I would also
encourage you to buy around 18 Giant Rats and 3 packmasters. These could
be placed on the other flank or in a long line in front of your army.
THE KEY:
!!!!!!! The most important thing to realize is that these units, while
interesting and helpful are not the core of your army. They will not do
much killing themselves. You need other troops to do that !!!!!!!
Are these the "best" troops to buy? I don't know. I do know that they can
be used intelligently and with success. If you like them. Buy them. You
can figure out how to win with them later.
> I have ordered the skaven army book from a store in another city, but it
> takes very long time to have it.
Its worth the wait. Nothing is more important to playing skaven than
owning the army book.
> Are they getting their asses kicked every time they play?
No, the American champ this year was a skaven player!
> U guys say it is good to start play with only one Clan, how can that be
> good?
That is just my opinion (I'm just one person).
> It seems to me that all the clans are needed in a good army. They have
> so many different things in their clans, so I guess they will do best
> together...?
They will do the best together. However, it will take a long time and a
lot of money to buy EVERY different skaven unit. When you are first
starting out you may want to focus on one clan. I believe that focusing on
one clan will make gaming more fun, realistic (?), without any real
drawbacks.
I want to remind you of a few things I included in my last post. First,
you are not LIMITED to one clan. However, if you like packmaster/giant
rats then Clan Moulder would be a good THEME for your army. This means
that you could focus on buying several mosters such as harpies, maybe a
cockatrice or a manticore as well as a big unit of Rat Ogres.
I firmly believe that all of the troops in the skaven army (and indeed, in
all of the armies) can be used to build a successful army. I hope that
this post will help you understand how you can use your ratswarms and giant
rats sucessfully.
Good luck!
Brian
=================================================================
"Ok, now listen carefully ..."
Q: I'm wondeering: Is it good to have Packmasters and PLENTY of giant
rats/rat swarms? I'm planning to have much much more.
> Rat swarms are good things to have to stop enemy regiments from closing
with you. Since they are immune to break and psychology tests, they will
die in place and allow you to position yourself for a charge.
"Kind of like zombie Master ?" "hmm ..."
Giant rats are another thing entirely. A unit of giant rats and
packmasters can always lap round their enemy, so against T3
troops with low WS and light armor, they are really good. Against knights,
they are poor if they get charged, because barring real luck, they will
break on the charge. If they get go do the charging, it will mean they
make a break test each round, because they have problems chewing
through the armor. In general, both units are good tar pits; they will
tie up more than their points in enemy for the game.
The swarm is more dependable, but you get more wounds with the giant rats.
"not the same only similar in certain way you use them, shuu .."
> Skaven are one of the most dangerous armies in the game, but they are
tricky to play, and somewhat predictable. You simply have to charge
at some point to win the game, and the opponent willl know this.
"Ya, just stand your ground and chuck them with those dam xbow blots."
Q: Are they getting their asses kicked every time they play?
>Nope. I lose with my rats every now and then, but in general I can give
anyone a good fight.
Q: U guys say it is good to start play with only one Clan, how can that be
good? It seems to me that all the clans are needed in a good army. They have so
many different things in their clans, so I guess they will do best together...?
>I am against the one-clan army. I like to mix up different clans and
troops, and I think they all have their role to do. Makes for an
interesting force.
"Don't matter ... they are not going to get away with trickery anymore ...
we are on to them ..." "Yes, Master ..."
--T. Rat
Thanks very much for your help!!/ David
==================================================================
Then, from that I can make only one conclusion..your opponent is
playing the Doomwheels incorrectly. It would be exceedingly difficult
to destroy the wheel with only a hero and a Pegasus. Unless the hero
had a very powerful weapon (>100pts)
1) To kill the wheel, all crew must be destroyed.
2) If you kill just the driver, it will never break.
3) It's got a LD of 10
4) It shoots in HTH, and does d6 wounds.
5) The swarm gets 5 attacks, no matter how many rats are dead.
6) To destroy the Wheel itself, you need to do 3 wounds to a T7
7) Randomized hits tend to go to the rats and the wheel itself.
With a chariot hit, I can see the possibility, but the chariot would
also be destroyed...it just hit an obstacle and will take d6 str 6 hits
itself.
=================================================================
Q: A 'remains in play' spell is in play at the beginning of the magic phase.
It moves randomly and moves off the board. Can the spell be recast during the
current magic phase? What if the spell was cast in the magic phase and moved
off the board in magic phase, can it be cast again in the magic phase?
A: A wizard who casts a spell which remains in play may dispel it
automatically at the start of his own magic turn without expending a
card to do so. He may cast the spell again that turn if he wishes.
[Magic book, p. 11]
=================================================================
15.4 Targeting Characters
Q: Are there any restriction on targeting characters with spells or
magic item effects?
A: Yes. A spell that affects a `unit' or `figure or unit' is governed
by the same targeting restrictions that apply to missile fire. If
the spell can do a lot of damage to a unit, the spell caster is going
to kill as many people as possible.
If a spell affects a `single model', then characters can be targeted
with impunity. Even if the character is within a unit they may
be targeted. [Magic book Page 22]
Q: An enemy mage targets a monster mounted by another mage. Can the
mage mounted on the monster use rebound, destroy spell, and other
effects that count for 'mage' or 'unit mage is in'?
A: Yes. [Primarch]
5.5 Spells Damage to Chariots
Q: Is damage done to a chariot by a spell randomized?
A: There are two types of spell damage done to a chariot that are
randomized per the charts in the rule book.
One is the damage done by a spell that states "the first model hit
suffers a strength x hit that causes y wounds". This "first model
in path" spell hits a random part of the chariot to do its damage.
The other type of damage done by a spell that is randomized is the spell
that states "the unit suffers x strength y hits". Once the
number of hits is determined, randomize where each hit potentially wounds.
Template spells affect everything under the template. Spells that can
target a single model for damage can target any part of the
chariot. [Primarch]
Note: In the case of the Dark Magic Spell Doombolt and other spells
which attack war machines directly, all hits are assumed
to be against the chariot chassis at Str 10, and are therefore not randomized.
=================================================================
So the problem now is, it says in the section about lances, that a
character attacking with a lance, throws it away after the first round of
combat and gets his sword.
Question now is, can this sword be a magic weapon or not ?
Didn't we just go over this? No, a magic weapon is not a hand weapon, it's
a different category. It's the same reason you can't use a hand weapon as
second weapon with a magic weapon.
-Damian
> >Undead chariot (war machine) can have a magic banner
> >and it cannot be a non-magical and there is no + 1 to combat bonus
> >unless it comes from the
> >magical banner, correct ?
>
> Correct, a banner will give them the +1, and they can only have a magic
> banner.
>
> -Damian
>
If you mount your undead general in a chariot can it have the banner?
No. Character may buy option chariot does not include the cost of the crews.
=================================================================
*** Overwhelm you enemy and increase your combat bonus.
>> The flank and rear bonuses were not cumulative in 4th editon. Did this
>> change too?
>
>Yup. Page 39, under Rear Attack: "This bonus and the bonus for a flank
>attack are cumulative, so if you are attacking in the side and rear you
>will receive a bonus of +3."
Consider this, if the enemy unit isn't too deep it is possible to lap
twice and get a +3 combat resolution (+1 for flank first turn, on second turn
lap onto rear for additional +2). A unit 6 wide would sacrifice two ranks to
get +3 resolution. Not bad.
...
I'll be damned! Well, I like it! One more reason to hold that the use of
the plural form ("bonuses") in the lapping section is not ambigious and
does not imply loss of all enemy rank bonus.
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figure ...
I have the Ral Partha Catapult for use as a small stone thrower in my
Orc & Goblin army. Its a little smaller than the GW version, but is an
excellent piece, especially at the price. The three dwarf crew may be a
little small also (I don't use them obviously), but they are still quite
good as far as sculpted pieces go. Since GW seems to be going with
smaller dwarf war machines/crew, it will probably fit in real well.
I just recently saw the Enigma catapult up close. This looks like an
excellent piece. Size wise it looks bigger than the Ral Partha piece,
and it cost $8.99 +/-. No crew with it, so supply your own. I
definitely will be picking one up.
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Skaven (rat) wheel
> Then, from that I can make only one conclusion..your opponent is
> playing the Doomwheels incorrectly. It would be exceedingly difficult
> to destroy the wheel with only a hero and a Pegasus. Unless the hero
> had a very powerful weapon (>100pts)
>
> 1) To kill the wheel, all crew must be destroyed.
> 2) If you kill just the driver, it will never break.
> 3) It's got a LD of 10
> 4) It shoots in HTH, and does d6 wounds.
> 5) The swarm gets 5 attacks, no matter how many rats are dead.
> 6) To destroy the Wheel itself, you need to do 3 wounds to a T7
> 7) Randomized hits tend to go to the rats and the wheel itself.
>
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The staff is great because it affects all undead units, but at 50pts with a
good chance to burn out, I consider it too risky. Select the necro spell
Van Hels. You can recast it for 1 power card if it is dispelled or if you
need to animate more than 1 unit.
A liche is a powerful hand combat opponent, especially against opposing
RnF. Inside a big unit of skeletons is a good place for him. Think about a
cheap magical weapon. Blade of Sea Gold to open up knights (-3 armor save),
Sword of Swift Slaying to protect your skellies (always strike first), or
my favorite, Blade of Ensorcelled Iron to lift the to hit roll to 2+
against most opponents (+1 to hit in close combat). If you want to spend a
few more points, try the Sword of Justice. This will virtually guarentee
all your attacks will hit, and it will devastate opposing knights since it
does not allow an armor save except for magic armor.
I prefer the Black Amulet over the Golden Crown for two reasons: first, it
has a much lower probability of burning out, and second, its rebound
abilities has won me a fair share of games.
As you hinted, High Magic can destroy the Undead in very little time.
Therefore, you NEED the Skull Staff. The +1 to dispell is extremely
valuable, especially since High Magic will always be cast at you at a
higher level, regardless of the magic level of the mage that casts it.
Against non-High Magic users of lower magic level, you will virtually shut
down their magic phase since you will start dispelling on a 2+.
I would definitely add a 'zero power' magic item. Book of Secrets is your
best bet since you can burn up your BS7 and even some of your WS7 if the
need arises. There is nothing more frustrating than a low Winds of Magic
roll for the magic dependant Undead. If you find yourself holding lots of
power cards, use the book to cast a critical spell, then use the power
cards to reinforce the cast.
Be aware that High Magic users can really stymie the use of the Book and
recast ability, since they can use power cards as dispels. Against High
Magic, manuver to get one critical spell off a turn as I mentioned above.
Of course, none of this leaves any room for dispel scrolls. Try to find
points for a necromancer or two to hold them. You get an additional benefit
in that you can retain additional Winds of Magic cards for each necro,
giving you additional insurance against bad WoM rolls.
For spells, I already mentioned Van Hels.
One of the summoning spells is also needed. If you just want to top off
existing units, Summon Skeletons is you best bet since it effectively
forces the opponent to play a dispel against each D6 worth of skeletons you
try to raise.
Finally, take either Wind fo Death or Curse of Years. I prefer Wind of
Death for the following reason: you can 'cast' the spell away from any
unit, so magic item dispells and natural dispells won't get a chance to
work against it. If you start the spell on a unit, then the opponent can
use magic item protection to stop it. Otheriwse, the opponent will have to
play a dispel scroll or card.
The spell tends to be of very limited usefulness later in the game when
troops have moved towards the center of the field, since it must start
along a table edge. But for the first couple of rounds, it is a great spell
for taking out enemy war machines and massed units close to the deployment
edge.
Look over the magic item and banner section to become aware of nasty
anti-undead items. The restrictions in your tournament will allow Mork's
War Banner. Only the unit carrying the banner need touch your lich to make
his head explode. Banners in or on fast moving models have got to be
stopped before they get to your general. Banner of Arcane Protection is
also a problem.
Be aware that if you ask for help with an army, then you MUST post a battle
report, no matter how badly it goes. Do not attempt to avoid this as we
have your IP address and we know where you live.
Carmen
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I let characters with lances switch to any weapon they have after the round
they charge, including magic weapons. Everyone else is stuck with the
weapon they wield in the first round of combat.
As a house rule, I let my opponent switch weapons in the middle of combat
if a weapon is rendered useless, say, by the destruction or negation of
their magic weapon by a magic item.
The current rules are a bit inconsistent, so you need to come to some
understanding with your opponent. Best one I've seen: player declares the
weapon to be used at the start of combat. That weapon must be used for that
round even if it is destroyed or rendered ineffective because of enemy
magic items. At the start of each new round, models can switch to a
different weapon. RnF must all use the same weapon in any round. For
example, the wights in the front rank cannot choose to use their wight
blades while the 2nd rank uses spears.
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>Q: what happen if one of the chariots in this squad lost all its steeds
>?
>All chariot must stay with the squad ...
> If you mount your undead general in a chariot can it have the banner?
>
No. Undead character may buy option chariot does not include the cost
of the crews.
All undead character may but chariot mount comes without crews.
If a chariot (war machine) champion does not have a mount then he/she is
on foot, and if he buy a chariot then he is riding aloneside with the
chariot (war machine) and forming a "sqad" and cannot move 5" away from
it.
Q: what happen if one of the chariots in this squad lost all its steeds
?
All chariot must stay with the squad ...
Q: Wait .... I have 4 chariots and 2 of them have champions with
chariot mounts ... and I form a sqaud of 7 chariots lead by my General's
chariot ... how do I keep track of what can or cannot move ?
Uhmmm ... you fool ! No one field so many chariots ! You deserve to die
! They all blow up, ok ?
No, seriously, You think this Undead chariot mount is really well though
out ?
What is the answer then ?
No, I don't think they would have to. For any race besides Undead, a
chariot would be destroyed if it lost it's steeds. I would think the rest
of the squadron would be be able to move normally. But if the chariot is
later repaired with a Summon spell, it would be required to join the
squadron as soon as it possibly could. Basically like the rules for a
skirmishing unit.
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>
>
>An interesting situation arose in a game of Warhammer I had recently.
>In one magic phase, I activated the Orb of Thunder amongst other
>things. My opponents' attempts to dispel the Orb failed. Then, at
>the start of my next turn, with the Orb still in play and my
>opponents' general on dragon still trapped flying high, I activated
>the Storm Banner. The conflict then arose as to what happened - the
>Orb of Thunder says that everything already flying high cannot
>descend, but the description for the Storm Banner says that all
>creatures flying high must land. What happens?
Classic D6 roll-off under irresistable forces situation. Like Sword
of Destruction vs. Chaos Rune Shield. Either way he is in trouble.;)
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From:
Reaver9474@aol.com
Reply-To:
warhammerfb@direwolf.com
To:
warhammerfb@direwolf.com
In a message dated 97-10-08 01:17:55 EDT, you write:
<< I have a question to make for all those who have participated in a
tournament, or have run one! do you have any suggestions on how to make the
evaluation on army composition? I think it´s somwhat of a problem. I want
it to be a part of the final victory point, somewere around 30%, and
painting around 30%, leving the battle result at 40%. but how to make a
fairly equel evaluation, considering the differences between races! It
would be very helpfull if you give any answer on topic! >>
IMO you have to judge each race seperately. As each has different things
affecting composition. For example, you really can't IMO fault an undead
player for having a level 4 plus a couple other lower level mages. They need
magic and 2 of thier 3 general choices are level 4's. Although you may think
that's a bit too much for another army. Or another example is you can't
fault a dwarven player for taking lots of war machines (or empire for that
matter). It's one of their main strengths (and VERY important for dwarves in
tourny settings) while a HE army filling our as many RBT's as possible might
seem a little too much (even under new rules). Or an Empire general on
griffon is certainly not as bas as chaos general on griffon, etc... It's
definately not an easy task... there are some things that can be general for
all armies (2 special saves IMO are on the negative side for all armies) and
others which are bad for some, needed for others.
A few general things (these are just my opinion mind you)...
-elite units (ie an army with only elite units) should be a negative for
pretty much all armies, although some armies don't cessarily have elite units
or hard to define ones. For example, CHaos doesn't really have any. And
only half of the Bretonnian knights are considered elites. Knights of the
Realm are not.
- maxing out characters is likely a negative for most armies but some can't
help it. Undead need it (they are too dependant on them) and Chaos has to
spend practically 600-700+ points on a general, level 2 mage, and champion
(all are important) so it's hard NOT to max out characters with chaos. So
this is kinda an iffy thing... however Bretonnians really don't need to spend
all 75% character allowance (no matter how "in character" it is for the army
to have lots of heroes)
-while dwarves and empire do need to spend a lot of points on war machines, a
dwarven army with 25% organ cannons should really be a negative, same with
25% hellblasters in an empire army. (IMO)
-IMO names and a little history of the characters/army/units should always be
a bonus :)
Just MO but i think the actualy games played shouild count for at LEAST 50%.
And painting should not count for so much... just a thought.
Brad
Bretonnian FAQ Council Rep
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